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	<title>Comments on: Gravel: Bush Should Go To Hague</title>
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	<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/</link>
	<description>Government by fools, silliness and unintelligent people</description>
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		<title>By: Glenn Church</title>
		<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/comment-page-1/#comment-74</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Church</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://foolocracy.com/?p=488#comment-74</guid>
		<description>Defending George Bush is not something I take any comfort in. I consider him the second worst President in U.S. history (behind Buchanan, who let the Civil War develop and did absolutely nothing). His Presidency is an abysmal failure.

I realize that I did not elaborate deeply enough on &quot;bring the invasion of Iraq to the United Nations&quot;. The previous commenters have expanded on that. Their points are well-taken and I agree with many of them.

My point was that, unlike a Karadzvic, who operated completely outside international bodies, Bush did go to the U.N and received some support for his actions. Plus, he did persuade a number of nations to join him, although most did with limited support. Although he choose to twist international law and sanctions into whatever he wanted it to mean and ignored whatever restraints the weak and tepid U.N. placed over his actions, the thought of bringing Bush to The Hague only developed after the Iraq War went badly. Those who said this was a violation of international law were few in 2003. When the world has dealt with other war criminals, their acts have been opposed from the beginning, not years later.

Let us also keep in mind that Bush had widespread support from the American people and Congress to invade Iraq. If Bush is put on trial, the stain of guilt will spread wide. Ignorance is not usually considered a defense for a crime and Congressional support included Democrats and Republicans.  

Putting Bush on trial for the Afghanistan invasion will go no where. It can be presented as an act of self-defense by the U.S. Then it had widespread international support and still does. However, he should have stopped there and gone after Bin Laden instead of Saddam Hussein.

Now, torture is an entirely different matter. The Bush administration is in complete violation of every international agreement and covenant on human rights that the U.S. is party too. He can face the proper reprimand inside the United States and hopefully will someday.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Defending George Bush is not something I take any comfort in. I consider him the second worst President in U.S. history (behind Buchanan, who let the Civil War develop and did absolutely nothing). His Presidency is an abysmal failure.</p>
<p>I realize that I did not elaborate deeply enough on &#8220;bring the invasion of Iraq to the United Nations&#8221;. The previous commenters have expanded on that. Their points are well-taken and I agree with many of them.</p>
<p>My point was that, unlike a Karadzvic, who operated completely outside international bodies, Bush did go to the U.N and received some support for his actions. Plus, he did persuade a number of nations to join him, although most did with limited support. Although he choose to twist international law and sanctions into whatever he wanted it to mean and ignored whatever restraints the weak and tepid U.N. placed over his actions, the thought of bringing Bush to The Hague only developed after the Iraq War went badly. Those who said this was a violation of international law were few in 2003. When the world has dealt with other war criminals, their acts have been opposed from the beginning, not years later.</p>
<p>Let us also keep in mind that Bush had widespread support from the American people and Congress to invade Iraq. If Bush is put on trial, the stain of guilt will spread wide. Ignorance is not usually considered a defense for a crime and Congressional support included Democrats and Republicans.  </p>
<p>Putting Bush on trial for the Afghanistan invasion will go no where. It can be presented as an act of self-defense by the U.S. Then it had widespread international support and still does. However, he should have stopped there and gone after Bin Laden instead of Saddam Hussein.</p>
<p>Now, torture is an entirely different matter. The Bush administration is in complete violation of every international agreement and covenant on human rights that the U.S. is party too. He can face the proper reprimand inside the United States and hopefully will someday.</p>
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		<title>By: Shagata Ganai</title>
		<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Shagata Ganai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 11:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://foolocracy.com/?p=488#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Bush and Cheney are war criminals.  One does not have to do anything more than read the (state-controlled) media reports to recognize this.  The problem is, there is no force strong enough to extradite them.  I&#039;d like to see either one tour Europe, though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bush and Cheney are war criminals.  One does not have to do anything more than read the (state-controlled) media reports to recognize this.  The problem is, there is no force strong enough to extradite them.  I&#8217;d like to see either one tour Europe, though.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaos Motor</title>
		<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/comment-page-1/#comment-68</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaos Motor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:27:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://foolocracy.com/?p=488#comment-68</guid>
		<description>I forgot to say, accusations of war crimes shouldn&#039;t be reserved only for the &quot;most genocidal&quot; or obviously egregious offenders. Anyone - ANYONE - who appears to have engaged in war crimes should be tried for such. Not just the worst of the worst, but everyone who appears to have committed those offenses. Otherwise, the existence of &quot;war crimes&quot; as a category is pointless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to say, accusations of war crimes shouldn&#8217;t be reserved only for the &#8220;most genocidal&#8221; or obviously egregious offenders. Anyone &#8211; ANYONE &#8211; who appears to have engaged in war crimes should be tried for such. Not just the worst of the worst, but everyone who appears to have committed those offenses. Otherwise, the existence of &#8220;war crimes&#8221; as a category is pointless.</p>
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		<title>By: Chaos Motor</title>
		<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Chaos Motor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:26:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://foolocracy.com/?p=488#comment-67</guid>
		<description>I agree completely with Mike Gravel. Bush has committed war crimes, or engaged in actions that would be reasonably considered war crimes, in violation of the Geneva Convention and numerous other international treaties, and should be put on trial. 

Remember, even though we&#039;re moving away from this principle in America, a person is innocent until proven guilty, and a trial is not an outright demonstrator of guilt. What his administration has done deserves to be reviewed in international court to determine if he is guilty of what he appears to be guilty of - war crimes; waging a war of aggression, torture, and other crimes identified as war crimes by international treaty and convention.

This is not to presume his guilt! But he has been accused of such and appears, by all obvious signs, to have engaged in war crimes! Put him on trial! If he is not guilty, he will not be found guilty. If he is found guilty, he is deserving of whatever sentence he may receive.

Stop presuming that being put on trial is an immediate sign of guilt! Remember our founding principles, innocent until proven guilty. And to determine that guilt, we need a trial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree completely with Mike Gravel. Bush has committed war crimes, or engaged in actions that would be reasonably considered war crimes, in violation of the Geneva Convention and numerous other international treaties, and should be put on trial. </p>
<p>Remember, even though we&#8217;re moving away from this principle in America, a person is innocent until proven guilty, and a trial is not an outright demonstrator of guilt. What his administration has done deserves to be reviewed in international court to determine if he is guilty of what he appears to be guilty of &#8211; war crimes; waging a war of aggression, torture, and other crimes identified as war crimes by international treaty and convention.</p>
<p>This is not to presume his guilt! But he has been accused of such and appears, by all obvious signs, to have engaged in war crimes! Put him on trial! If he is not guilty, he will not be found guilty. If he is found guilty, he is deserving of whatever sentence he may receive.</p>
<p>Stop presuming that being put on trial is an immediate sign of guilt! Remember our founding principles, innocent until proven guilty. And to determine that guilt, we need a trial.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://foolocracy.com/2008/07/gravel-bush-should-go-to-hague/comment-page-1/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 07:45:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://foolocracy.com/?p=488#comment-66</guid>
		<description>Furthermore Operation Enduring Freedom wasn&#039;t sanctioned by the UN Security Council either and was launched by the USA with British support on October 07 2001. It wasn&#039;t until December 20 2001 that the UNSC authorised the creation of the International Security Assistance Force whose remit was to assist security operations in Afghanistan. Until October 2003 the ISAF did not operate outside Kabul as was consistent with its mandate.

The Afghanistan operation was initiated by Bush and was continued after the Taliban offered both to put bin Laden on trial as well as hand him over to a third country if given proof of his guilt. Bush&#039;s words regarding this offer when he rejected it make an interesting footnote when applied similarly to the accusations of war-crimes against him.

&quot;There&#039;s no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he&#039;s guilty.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore Operation Enduring Freedom wasn&#8217;t sanctioned by the UN Security Council either and was launched by the USA with British support on October 07 2001. It wasn&#8217;t until December 20 2001 that the UNSC authorised the creation of the International Security Assistance Force whose remit was to assist security operations in Afghanistan. Until October 2003 the ISAF did not operate outside Kabul as was consistent with its mandate.</p>
<p>The Afghanistan operation was initiated by Bush and was continued after the Taliban offered both to put bin Laden on trial as well as hand him over to a third country if given proof of his guilt. Bush&#8217;s words regarding this offer when he rejected it make an interesting footnote when applied similarly to the accusations of war-crimes against him.</p>
<p>&#8220;There&#8217;s no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he&#8217;s guilty.&#8221;</p>
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